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Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Vertder Miff on Tue 24 May 2011, 7:32 pm

I think the pond at the end of the run constitutes the deceleration crux.
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Flying_Spaghetti_Monster on Tue 24 May 2011, 10:04 pm

c-dub wrote:Actually was more embarrassed by the use of the wrong their, but am afraid to touch it again to fix it. When I do get in there I will adjust it so that both cruxes are fairly represented. I heard there is also a limbo crux down stream just above Hog's wallow currently.
I thought you were against multiple cruxs? scratch
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Guest on Tue 24 May 2011, 11:01 pm

Convert. Cruxes for all!!!!! Very Happy

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Compton Boater on Wed 25 May 2011, 9:30 am

So, all the people in this thread are saying the river ratings are Overrated, however you pu$&%es are timid of Class FOUR Ogden Narrows. The parking lot is empty every night. I have yet to see a single car parked at Scrambled eggs, apparently an Overrated Class V. You all need to drink a big glass of Harden the Fu#@ Up and go charge the goodness. Bridal Veil is Class 3, with 250 feet of Class IV. Not Overrated. Upper Provo Falls, apparently Overrated Class V, however I have never ran into another group up there running the falls, even though it runs at the perfect level for a month.

If you go run the North Fork of the Payette at 350 cfs, you did'nt really run the North Fork. Same goes for the Ogden, Weber, Price, Provo all of which are Not Overrated now that they are full of the watery goodness. Try to get more water instead of different ratings.

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by brianteats on Wed 25 May 2011, 10:57 am

Remember, these flows are 'uncharacteristic'. Last time these rivers saw this type of consistant flow, boats were 12 feet long and paddling was still sort of a curiosity. I agree with CB; here in the national rock-boating capital of the country, the ratings are as accurate as anywhere else-subjective and flow dependant. Although, I must confess, the more I get out on this high water, I may be enjoying it more than rock boating.

Why are the parking lots empty? I've ran into a total of 4 people in the last couple weeks doing the Narrows(no one doing Rainbow Gardens), only heard of people doing Eggs, and no one doing 89-RW. Oh well, I'm not complaining, crowded parking lots and river traffic isn't fun anyways(Hen-Tag on a hot summer day anyone?)
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by johnnie a. on Wed 25 May 2011, 1:27 pm

nick,

i drank a very small glass of harden the fuck up, and promptly vomited it all over myself...

stoked for you and crystal and jp!!!
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by TennesseeJed on Wed 25 May 2011, 2:28 pm

Just laughed so hard spit flew out of my face~
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by wasatchbill on Wed 25 May 2011, 7:45 pm

It seems clear to me that the way to improve ratings is to specify "rating and flow", like Whitewater of the Southern Rockies does. A few of the Eddyflower run authors have done that also, like the Gore run. They also use parenthesis if a single harder rapid can be portaged fairly easily (like the first line below).
So IV+ (V) says that the run is reasonable for IV+ paddlers who are willing to portage one V rapid.
http://www.eddyflower.com/RunDetailstabs.aspx?RunId=71#/home
Example from the Gore description at that link:
Difficulty Information:
- IV+ (V) 800-1300 cfs
- V- 1300-2200 cfs
- V > 2200 cfs

Without specifying the flow with the rating, changing ratings has no meaning. The Narrows @100 cfs obviously is not as hard as at 400, or 800+. What Utah runs should be downrated at high flows (I guess we are talking about the eddyflower ratings)? I can't think of anything. BV, while at normal flows I've always heard it called IV-, its solid IV at 1400, and I've heard it steps up at 1500. Most runs are harder than they are rated on Eddyflower, at the current levels. Does anyone seriously think the Ogden Narrows at 1200 is easier than the Eddyflower rating (which is IV)?? WotSR calls it V- above 800; strong class V boaters who have done it dozens of times (Nick :-), may think its only IV+ at all levels, but I've seen a number of strong boaters with class V experience get severely beatdown in there. Its very difficult to get out of the river if you swim in the crux; and you are likely to take rock hits at rather high speed. Doing safety for the Narrows fall race, when the flow was 360 we had far less swimmers than when the flow was 460; clearly it steps up over 400, (WWotSR calls it IV+ over 400).

Ratings may be most useful for someone who has never done a run, or has never done a run at a given flow. As far as the Narrows go, because of the serious consequences, and the difficulty of assisting a swimmer, I tell people that WWotSR rates it V- over 800. And everyone will probably agree its harder at 1200 than 800.

I made an effort to rate local runs based on flow (back on the eddyflower board); didn't get much feedback. It was also more for paddlers looking for suggestions for progressing from III to IV. Maybe I'll update that list (now that I've done more local runs at high flows) and repost it, if there is some interest.
Meanwhile, the paddling is epic right now!
Very Happy

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Flying_Spaghetti_Monster on Wed 25 May 2011, 10:33 pm

Compton Boater wrote:So, all the people in this thread are saying the river ratings are Overrated, however you pu$&%es are timid of Class FOUR Ogden Narrows. The parking lot is empty every night. I have yet to see a single car parked at Scrambled eggs, apparently an Overrated Class V. You all need to drink a big glass of Harden the Fu#@ Up and go charge the goodness. Bridal Veil is Class 3, with 250 feet of Class IV. Not Overrated. Upper Provo Falls, apparently Overrated Class V, however I have never ran into another group up there running the falls, even though it runs at the perfect level for a month.

If you go run the North Fork of the Payette at 350 cfs, you did'nt really run the North Fork. Same goes for the Ogden, Weber, Price, Provo all of which are Not Overrated now that they are full of the watery goodness. Try to get more water instead of different ratings.

I agree with CB. There have been people talking mad shit about others, and have not charged down the Narrows or the Eggs this year. As far as class ratings.... Who gives a shit you are not basing a long trip on "If I can run this" It is in our back yard. Go out look at it, and decide is it in my skill level or not. If you think you got it, find another boater that you are willing to trust with your life, and fire it up. If not wait until another day. This class rating talk is overrated no one really cares what class something is, and the people that do are justify how bad ass they are by saying BV is solid class IV. If someone is dumb enough to kayak a road side river that is Class IV, but run it at high water with Bridal Vail skills that is their own fault. Ogden narrows is IV in your boat upright, IV+ upside down, and V swimming. That is how it goes. Also ''If you run the North Fork at low flows you did not run the North Fork." I agree having only done a run at 500cfs. Low flows do not count.... At all. This is getting redundant.
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Jeff Young on Wed 25 May 2011, 11:18 pm

Low flow NF 'doesn't count' toward what exactly? Who's counting? Think about that. Smile
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Flying_Spaghetti_Monster on Wed 25 May 2011, 11:20 pm

It doesn't count towards running the North Fork at true North Fork flows. Low flows can never prepare you for the real thing.
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Newty on Wed 25 May 2011, 11:47 pm

Can someone decide quick what Class Bridal Veil is so I can paddle tomorrow. I refuse to paddle something unless I get validation from someone else.

I have a Cat trip on June 6th, anyone know what class that is @120,000?????


Last edited by Newty on Wed 25 May 2011, 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more smartassing)
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by PeruH2o on Thu 26 May 2011, 12:07 am

I love the NF at winter flows.

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by Jeff Young on Thu 26 May 2011, 12:19 am

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster wrote:Low flows can never prepare you for the real thing.

Wow, I'll have to get a hold of Doug Ammons and tell him he's completely wrong in strongly suggesting running the NF at low flow to learn it prior to running it at higher flows. Sure, it can't fully prepare you but its part of the process sometimes.


Last edited by Jeff Young on Thu 26 May 2011, 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more spice)
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by unattendedboat on Thu 26 May 2011, 12:38 am

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2011, Best Year Ever!

Post by Compton Boater on Thu 26 May 2011, 10:23 am

Newty wrote:Can someone decide quick what Class Bridal Veil is so I can paddle tomorrow. I refuse to paddle something unless I get validation from someone else.

I have a Cat trip on June 6th, anyone know what class that is @120,000?????

Newty, since this thread is basically the official river ratings of Utah 2011, you should have read closer and you would have seen that BV is "Class 3 with 250 feet of Class 4 and is Not Overrated". In Cataract at 120k, you don't even have to paddle, you just need to Believe in the power of your mind to direct your boat, its called Hypnoboating.

KLPS drank a glass of HTFU and were hootin' at the takeout of Narrows last night. All the folks there thought 1,200 was beefier than 1,500. You know Life is Good in Utah when the shit talk and the rivers are both juicin'! 2011, Have Your Best Year Ever!

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by shoey on Thu 26 May 2011, 10:35 am

This thread is f**kin awesome.

Narrows is definitely more sticky at 1200...

Compton, I want to see a hypnoboating demo this weekend.
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by brandon on Thu 26 May 2011, 11:08 am

It keeps getting better and better
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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

Post by mitchin on Thu 26 May 2011, 11:42 am

I want to know how Compton got so good at Hypnoboating while he had his mind on his money and his money on his mind. Not to mention all those hoes I'm sure he has to keep track of.

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Re: Can we have an open discussion about river ratings in Utah?

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